Nick Cain talks to Courtney Lawes about England’s welcome strength in depth

Courtney Lawes on the bench? If ever there was a register of the growing confidence and depth of the England squad it came with Stuart Lancaster’s decision to leave the form forward of the season, in the Six Nations and the Premiership, champing at the bit for the second and third Tests of this tour of New Zealand.
The forest of raised eyebrows in the Press conference when the England head coach named the Northampton lock among the replacements in Dunedin, rather than in the starting line-up, was testament to the surprise at the decision.
Lawes is, by his own admission, a lightweight lock, a wild rover who roams the field hitting rucks and making big hits and carries. However, anybody who thinks he is a lightweight in any respect other than being a rangy 6ft 7in rather than a super-tanker second row has had their eyes shut throughout the entire Six Nations and Premiership campaigns.
Lawes is a rarity because, with the exception of the recently retired French ‘Caveman’, Sebastien Chabal, and a handful of Pacific Island imports, there are few forwards in the Northern Hemisphere who hit as hard as the Saints lock in the tackle, or as destructively. The main point of difference between Lawes and many of the Polynesians is that because he tackles lower and engages his arms, the majority of his collisions are legitimate.
The Saints hit-man says that timing is the key. “It’s all about timing. Everything. The timing of the pass, whether it’s from scrum-half, or whoever, it’s about whether to go and make that contact. It’s more instinct for me.

“If I can time my run off the 9 and the 10 is not looking inside, then I know he’s not going to see me. So, that’s when I come off the line and make that hit. If I’m not sure, then I won’t shoot out and jeopardise the defensive line. You have to be pretty certain – and that’s why they don’t happen all the time.”
There is a vogue among modern coaches for telling us that second row is a position that has changed out of all recognition. However, having seen the likes of John Eales and Ian Jones play in their mobile, athletic pomp 15 years ago, such statements deserve to be handled with circumspection.
There are also some of us who still lean towards the ideal locking combination being the classic lightweight- heavyweight pairing favoured by South Africa when Victor Matfield and Bakkies Botha were picked in tandem. The fact that Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer has just resurrected that veteran combination to play against the Welsh tourists highlights an apparent reluctance by England to travel a similar selection path by fielding Lawes and the heavy-duty Dave Attwood.
What is undeniable, however, is that England have five international class locks to call on with Geoff Parling, Joe Launchbury, Attwood, Ed Slater and Lawes all in the second row mix.
When I caught up with Lawes in Dunedin on Thursday evening he said he had found it hard watching the last-knockings first Test defeat at Eden Park.
“When you’re injured it’s okay, but when you’re fit you want to be out there. I enjoyed the game, it was exciting, but when you want to be out there it’s difficult to watch.”
Asked if he found the atmosphere muted, especially when set against that at Twickenham during Northampton’s epic 24-20 extra-time Premiership final victory over Saracens, he is diplomatic.
“It’s like any game, when it’s exciting the crowd gets into it. I think the Kiwi fans expect a lot from their team and they get behind them when they’re playing well. And maybe when they are rusty – as they say they were – they are not quite so excited about it.”
Lawes makes it clear, however, that he is re-energised by the prospect of playing against New Zealand despite the demands of having to peak again after a 100-minute final which he says was the most demanding game of his career.
“It was definitely the toughest game I’ve ever played in – by a long stretch. I was absolutely knackered, and just lucky that it was all worth it at the end. It was fantastic, but getting over it, as well as the trip over here and playing (the next Saturday), would be very tough. But it’s mental, and if you’ve got to get up for a game, then you’ve got to get up for it.”

He added: “We peak at the end of the season, and it’s a question of keeping that going now that we’re down here in New Zealand. It’s good to have that intensity of playing for 100 minutes because it really tests your fitness and your character in those situations. To come out after a game of that intensity and represent your country is exactly what you need.”
Ask Lawes if he is relieved that Northampton have finally ditched their bridesmaid’s tag and he offers a different perspective. “I never saw it that way. We got to the Premiership final the previous year, but apart from that it’s only been the Heineken Cup final in 2011 that we missed out on. There’s been a few semis and a few decisions not gone our way here and there, but I never saw us as a team that could get to a final but could never win it. This year we showed that. Of course, there was massive motivation after last season (when Saints lost to Leicester). But a lot of experience comes from that, and knowing what you can and cannot get away with in knock-out finals rugby. That really did pay dividends.”
However, he says it was important to get over the hurdle of losing big matches to Leicester. “It was massive for us to beat them in the semi-final, especially coming back to win when we were a man down at the end of the game.
“There have been so many times when it’s gone the other way and we’ve disappointed ourselves. This time it all came together at the right time against Leicester, and Saracens.”
Lawes says that playing New Zealand makes different demands to the final against Saracens: “New Zealand play quicker, and they will certainly try to tire us out. Or so I keep being told. So, that final might come in pretty handy.
“It’s just the width they play with, and the speed and intensity with which they do it. That’s what you look forward to as a player – to challenge the best, and see if you can live up to that, and maybe take it on further.”

With the Kiwis accusing England of slowing the game down Lawes, 25, expands on the up-tempo subject. “I’ve been playing international rugby now for five years, so I know what it’s like. I know which teams like to play quick, and which like to play a bit slower. New Zealand are one of the quickest in the world, and that’s what they pride themselves on. You have got to match them there, and make sure that you are as fit as they are, so you are ready on the day.”
He says a high-speed game is right up his street: “That’s what I’m all about. I’m a lighter second row and I like to get around the park, hitting lots of rucks, carrying the ball and making lots of tackles. That kind of game really suits me – I can keep up with it, and I enjoy it.”
Lawes says also that staying injury free has been a huge plus, and underpinned his stellar Six Nations campaign. “Luckily this season I’ve been able to stay fit the whole time. It’s the first season I’ve been able to do that, and it’s been brilliant. It’s the reason why I’ve been in such good form. I was playing all season up to that point and I hit the ground running.
“In the past I’ve come in off the back of an injury – the third game in, or whatnot – whereas this time I started early and was able to keep the momentum rolling. When I’m confident and playing well and not worried about having a bad game, I’m ready to do whatever it takes to win.”
He says he does not deliberately target his opposite number: “I just go out and play my game and if I’m a better player then, hopefully, I’ll prove it. I work for the team – everything I do is to get the team on the front foot, get it momentum, or get it out of a jam. I’m not fussed about what the opposition are doing.”
However, he says New Zealand are world champions for a reason. “They are very clever. They know what their strengths are, and that’s what they always try to play to. They also try to get the refs onside, and that’s all stuff that other teams can learn from. They also have some unbelievable individuals. They are a good team, well drilled, and they take pride in what they are about.”
Lawes says that Lancaster has instilled that same pride in England since he was last in New Zealand during the 2011 World Cup. “There’s so much to say that you wouldn’t be able to put it all down in an hour. The difference basically comes down to Stuart (Lancaster) and what he has brought to the team. The chemistry he has brought in, and the camaraderie. He really has changed us in terms of a culture we can all buy into.”
When Lawes eventually gets on the pitch against New Zealand, you sense that the chemistry could be explosive.
*This article was first published in The Rugby Paper on June 15.